Writing Group Therapy

[Curtis888]

I actually don't know of a lot of movies/TV where Yakuza and Mafia coexist...

Very true. But it doesn't make me want to explore thoses paths less traveled if the first steps I take (in writing) are blackballed, then whitewashed, and finally forgot about. What's the use of being a team player if the make-believe team (around here) isn't work together as a real team to move any storyline forward? I may not like the maf/yak story, but wtf, I'm at least working on it because I care for this project. (Or, at least, it's name sake.) If this project is really based off of volunteer work, then basic storyline ideas shouldn't be ostisized because they aren't 'written to formula.' Seriously, how many writers have been turned away or lost interest in this project for that very reason? Oh, wow, forum membership has reached 600. Big deal. How many of those 600 memebers actual are still around and willing to contribute after their awesome ideas were used as toliet paper? 20-25 memebers, and that's being overly optimistic. But, if it was even that many memebers persist, I'm sure the Assests storyline department would have much more to work with. As it currently, is after, what, 3 years, it has a piddy 15 storylines-or-so, with half of those being one shot missions, or missions that would make up a better tutorial than actual in-game, grip your heart string-style storyline. The senoir member of this project seriously need to rethink how to handle "volunteer" story content.

[jolyrojr]

Very true. But it doesn't make me want to explore thoses paths less traveled if the first steps I take (in writing) are blackballed, then whitewashed, and finally forgot about. What's the use of being a team player if the make-believe team (around here) isn't work together as a real team to move any storyline forward? I may not like the maf/yak story, but wtf, I'm at least working on it because I care for this project. (Or, at least, it's name sake.) If this project is really based off of volunteer work, then basic storyline ideas shouldn't be ostisized because they aren't 'written to formula.' Seriously, how many writers have been turned away or lost interest in this project for that very reason? Oh, wow, forum membership has reached 600. Big deal. How many of those 600 memebers actual are still around and willing to contribute after their awesome ideas were used as toliet paper? 20-25 memebers, and that's being overly optimistic. But, if it was even that many memebers persist, I'm sure the Assests storyline department would have much more to work with. As it currently, is after, what, 3 years, it has a piddy 15 storylines-or-so, with half of those being one shot missions, or missions that would make up a better tutorial than actual in-game, grip your heart string-style storyline. The senoir member of this project seriously need to rethink how to handle "volunteer" story content.

See, thats why im not a writer.  writing, story lines, its all personal interpretation.  Its more art than the art assets. 

Though honestly, as there really isnt a need for many story lines in 1.0, i think that should just allow you to open up on writing for 2.0 and I would seriously write for 3 and 4, because it makes sense, over the course of a career, you are going to continue to have relationships with your contacts, as long as you dont screw them.  You can introduce characters for a single run, then bring that character back in later down the road for a more personal story, and really weave an intricate tale.

As far as people accepting it, I think acceptance will depend on who is still around when the software reaches the point that you can actually build missions.  People who are still around have more say by default, because they are the ones actually building missions.

In the mean time, work on the kind of stories you want to work on.  If your work is gold, everyone would be stupid to pass it up.  If the the formula doesnt have the same results, screw the formula. 

but thats just the opinion of a lonely fixer

[Shadowrun: Awakened Forums]

[Curtis888]

Though honestly, as there really isnt a need for many story lines in 1.0....

Since I joined this project as a writer, I've heard multiple time how "we need content, we need content!" So, when I deliver written content with my limited knowledge of Shadowrun, I get the run around and repetious excuses why its "not quite usable". If anything, we should have a working game engine before story ideas are deemed usable or not. I've been told not to write missions with "novel-like descriptions," which, to me is overlooking the content of my work and focusing more on critiquing my writing style -- which is pointless for this project in its current state. I was planning to write more story speil when I was on summer vacation, but I ended up playing Half-Life 2 (and both episodes) instead, as it seemed like a more productive thing to do. (The commentaries offer sweat professional video game developmental insight!) I could've wrote on my Lone Star campaign, forwarding the 'Golden Path', which

could

lead into the Mayan Cutter incident, and over to this battle with Knight Errant; but I really don't feel like hearing/reading, "This is a good idea, too bad it's so descriptive or it might be useful." People need to open their mind to the possiblities of ideas, not limit themselves and this project to the cookie cutter implentation of one man's vision about the (storyline) foundation of this game. Even if that one man is the Assest Manager, who's busy enough creating models. I'm not picking on anybody, but seriously, people want to see their idea come alive because the Shadowrun universe is awesome enough to make those dreams each a 45-minute reality.

[eralston]

On the subject of the drive for content, it is a more multi-faceted problem than just writing.  We need words, models, texture, sounds, music, and scripts, all rolled into levels.  There is currently no remaining senior member actively managing this area.  Bandit does drop by from time-to-time, but since his move to the US, he's had other issues.  Consistent leadership in this area would be the only remedy for the problems highlighted above.

Roger's comments on keeping to your passion and accumulating work is the only thing a single individual can certainly do.  Cream always rises.

I don't know what to say about the editorial comments.  They are justified.  Of the senior members, I have reported the most time in Shadowrun, so I've always felt like I should show responsibility over keeping everything "Shadowrun enough".  Often that involves injecting some time into writing, but playing a role greater than commentator seems like one too many hats.

I believe I am responsible for the novel-like structure comment.  I still stand behind the idea of trying to get high-level descriptions into the hands of the general developer public.  The game mechanics are descriptive of what we want to happen in individual chunks, but nothing that presents a narrative arc of how they would be applied.  If the other developers, programmers in particular, never get to see such descriptions, then we might never find gaps in the mechanics or, in the very least, will have a chicken and egg problem with the direction of storytelling details (writers want to know what's possible, programmers want to know what the writers want us to make possible, etc).

[jolyrojr]

On the subject of the drive for content, it is a more multi-faceted problem than just writing.  We need words, models, texture, sounds, music, and scripts, all rolled into levels. 

it is my experience, that better games come when writing and planning take the lead, followed by programming and assets.  Games that define what can be done with story because the story has to fit within the confines of a precreated system generally fail.  Look at Sim Tower!  that shit is a game built after the fact based on a program that controlled elevator traffic in large buildings.  they forced a game onto the framework, because the code was largely done first. of course sims games are not a good model of story driven gameplay, but they are a great model of fun and management...

I think the two main constraints on assets is writing and programming.  Writing decides WHAT to make while the programming decides HOW to make it.  Without a sturdy idea of the HOW, you cant make complete assets, but at least with good writing, you can have an assortment of objects that are done enough that once the programming is ready they have something to play with and find out what they need.  I guess I would say its kind of a tripod.  I was thinking the assets legs is shorter, but the WANT aspect of assets certainly can drive the programming more than the writing will as far as graphic prgramming goes. In order to give you must first take, and in order to take you must first give, the master is all powerful because they reject power.

There is currently no remaining senior member actively managing this area.  Bandit does drop by from time-to-time, but since his move to the US, he's had other issues.  Consistent leadership in this area would be the only remedy for the problems highlighted above.

life happens, thats understandable, but at the same time we cant let the reservations of absent senior members derail the process in their absence.  As far as bandit goes, I honestly got the feeling he thought I had tried to move in on his spot.  Thats because I did, but not because I thought he was bad at it or anything, I just saw a need and tried to fill it.  I didn't really know at the time that it was his spot. 

Roger's comments on keeping to your passion and accumulating work is the only thing a single individual can certainly do.  Cream always rises.

I feel to blame for igniting Curtis.  We feel the same way, so thats a good sign its a common feeling at large.  I want to see both of us be able to move forward.  I took my advice when I started crafting vehicles, to the quality and functions I saw they needed.  coincidently this is certainly an example of assets leading the way, but its not like adding interactive sub objects should be that much more work to code, once they realize the vehicle class is going to have to contain certain members and functions to drive those sub objects.

I don't know what to say about the editorial comments.  They are justified.  Of the senior members, I have reported the most time in Shadowrun, so I've always felt like I should show responsibility over keeping everything "Shadowrun enough".  Often that involves injecting some time into writing, but playing a role greater than commentator seems like one too many hats.

I know a thing or two about wearing lots of hats.  Its really not fun and the long result is less success and productivity.  You need to delegate.  Also we both also have to know when not to comment, I know I cant help myself and you seem the same way.   

I believe I am responsible for the novel-like structure comment. 
[/quote

I dont think I know what comment you are talking about XP. 

I still stand behind the idea of trying to get high-level descriptions into the hands of the general developer public.  The game mechanics are descriptive of what we want to happen in individual chunks, but nothing that presents a narrative arc of how they would be applied.  If the other developers, programmers in particular, never get to see such descriptions, then we might never find gaps in the mechanics or, in the very least, will have a chicken and egg problem with the direction of storytelling details (writers want to know what's possible, programmers want to know what the writers want us to make possible, etc).

as far as the static story line, writers:  Pretty much anything is possible! There are limitations on how much you can have going on, but not on what you have happen.  any story arc can be built, if the programmers have the creativity to see it through.  Well, you probably want to avoid city wide cataclysm, that would just be a pain.  Dont make stories with hundred of people in a small area, if you keep things reasonable there shouldn't be any problems.

Programmers:  You can accomplish most anything the writers will throw at you, as long as you approach the topic logically and rationally, you can work through it.  Look at all of the games out there, do any major games limit the story because they cant move a camera or script a basic event?  npc 1 runs to location 2, says dialog 1, character 2 runs to his location 3, says dialog 2, create an explosion, people run towards it.   blah blah blah.  all scripting is, is linking blocking aka where they move, with what they say, to when they do those things.  you make triggers and events.

[Curtis888]

... I believe I am responsible for the novel-like structure comment.  I still stand behind the idea of trying to get high-level descriptions into the hands of the general developer public.  The game mechanics are descriptive of what we want to happen in individual chunks, but nothing that presents a narrative arc of how they would be applied.  If the other developers, programmers in particular, never get to see such descriptions, then we might never find gaps in the mechanics or, in the very least, will have a chicken and egg problem with the direction of storytelling details (writers want to know what's possible, programmers want to know what the writers want us to make possible, etc).

In my written content, I like to establish what I'd like to see done on the programming side. I'm not saying my mission structures are an end of the means, but I'd like to know if I'm not the right track for what we're shooting for gameplay-wise. Hence my desription of preceived in-game action. I think of each archetype being able to play and have fun, and not much of anything else. (Insert name, loctation, etc.) Once that is seen as viable, then I can start thinking about the non-linear, multi-path choice that leads up to this moment in-game and how it could turn out after. Sure it's a shit load of work, but I'm willing to tackle it. It's worthless to me when somebody comments about anything else and raises a stink about the wrong thing I'm not aiming for. No doubt each and every field of game development goes hand-in-hand for creating even a single mission or even a single screen shot, but that's always looking at how far things have evolved for the game itself, not what's possible with what's been already agreed upon. If you can work with me and answer my questions instead of crying about what I did "wrong," then I can adapt to the situation much easier and be able to come up with the descriptions that will help all developers, especially the programmers. My problem is that you still have no faith in the way I work because it's so different from what you expect to see, or what you expect from a "volunteer." I don't beat around the bush, I set fire to it and roast marshmallows.

Eric, what you're worring about in the end of your last post (above,) we haven't even built up to implementing yet. At least as far I know. But, then again, being misunderstood seems to be the only thing I'm good at around here. No chicken, no egg. Answer my simple questions and we'll all eat steak. (Sorry about the food metaphors, but they get my point across better than anythng else I could think of at the moment.)

[lobon]

Hey Curtis if I have made you unhappy about anything I apologize.


My intention is to keep the game inside the SR Canon. That means I will try to guide us back inside what the story is, however I am always the one to say that just because it is one way does not mean that there is not a one off situation that would allow a writer to tell his or her story.


From the standpoint of content I came to accept that we are still a ways off from having concrete content guidelines. So instead I took a page from the author Terry Brooks who suggests that all writers make an outline of what they are going to write. I tweak it for our situation and realize that in the end the story can be adjusted for the mechanics we end up being forced to used. As a PnP game-master I have played games with 2 dice for all actions and hardly ever rolled in some sessions.

In the end I think it would be best for the writers to focus on making a good story line with a solid beginning, a good middle and an engaging end. Start with the basics and then go back and polish. Add details. Put in more complex NPC descriptions and location descriptions as the programmers develop there side.

I am approaching this from the idea that ultimately the software will be fairly plug and play and the more content I have created on the shelf the more time I will have to fix story errors and have ready to go modules by the time we are ready to make them.

In the end though this whole pizza party may be for naught. S&T may come in and shut us down and run away with their football. There are no guarantees given or expected in this. We should have fun and be engaged by what we are doing. 

As for the YAK/MAF thing? Well I have read way too much non fiction on both There are some great stereotypical stories to tell, some great war opportunities between the groups and some interesting hooks in both groups for telling one off stories. You want any help on those or want to spit ball ideas we can go back and forth on the brainstorming page.

[eralston]

This topic was split because it stopped being about LoneStart & Knight Errant and started to be about consternation in the writing team.

I think the most constructive thing at this point would be for Lobon and Curtis to get together in real-time or at least over e-mail.  You two are the most active writers.  It is up to you two to determine best practices for writing, not any shadow organization.  Please start a new thread on what you decide so you can look to the group for oversight (but not direction).

[Curtis888]

Hey Curtis if I have made you unhappy about anything I apologize.

Uhmmm, I don't know where that came from, but your all good, bro. I don't think we've even talk enough for me to think anything other of you than head/senoir writer. You were here before me. I'm just trying to keep things moving. Speaking of which, Ocular sent me an outline for a campaign and I told him to send it your way, to joly, Bandit, and Eric for some feedback. Well, I told him to send it to you, Lobon, first, because he see's you as head writer also. I agree with Eric that, with Bandit doing his thing, it's up to us to get this story mill ship shape. As long as all lines of communication are open, and mine are -- which I'll always answer back if I'm busy -- then we can start getting things readys to plot out in game.

[Ocular]

I just sent the first draft out to lobon and jolyrojr. Basically anything I write is going to make it's way around the team for feedback and contributions to the story. The point is I want a solid beta script before it hits Bandit's and Eralston's email. That way they can get a quality campaign outline that was developed as a group, which in turn decreases the amount of writing and editing that the manager's have to do.
Also, feel free to drop me a line for feedback and contributions anytime.

[Curtis888]

I'm excited about this development, as we can all move forward as one unit.